Sunday, March 8, 2020

Why Jorgensen opposes LP abortion plank

Jo Jorgensen Talks Diversity-Less Democrats, DOPE, Dershowitz, And The Elephant In The Room | The Libertarian Republic - Gary Doan:

March 5, 2020 - TLR: "This is Gary Doan ... talking to Jo Jorgensen. She’s best known for being Harry Browne’s running mate on the ’96 Libertarian presidential ticket and is currently running for the nomination, herself.... How far off do you think the Libertarian Party is from being competitive in ... an actual electoral sense? And how do you get there?
JJ: "Well, I think ... that in order to get anywhere, we need to have candidates at all levels: state, local and federal. And we need to have, of course, supporters, donors, people knocking on doors and all of that. So in 1996, Harry Browne and I focused on membership, and we doubled the party during those two years, and that’s been the largest growth in Libertarian Party history. And that’s what I think we need to replicate.... I think we need to become so big that people can’t ignore us. I’m not sure that the best way to do it is to look for people ... who’ve been elected for years, and then try to convince them to go our way. A lot of times, they got there by money from the special interests, from lobbyists. There have been a few exceptions. I will point to Ron Paul, I think Ron Paul is a libertarian....

TLR: "You’ve talked a lot, even here, about your connection to Harry Browne, as his VP in ’96. However, a lot has changed in the last 14 years. Why are you the best choice to head the ticket in 2020? And what have you done since ’96 that makes you more qualified for the top slot than then?
JJ: "First of all, there are some things that haven’t changed. Government is still too big and there are still a lot of the same philosophical reasons, some of the same history..... I was on something like 300 radio shows back then. I’ve had a lot of experience. So I can speak to a lot of these things. So that’s one thing that I think would help me that would carry over from ’96. But you’re right, things are different now. We’ve got social media, which we didn’t have before. And for those types of things, I do have other people....

TLR: "You have called for the Libertarian Party to delete the abortion plank, which would presumably mean that the platform was actually silent on the matter and individual candidates could feel more free to run under their own interpretations on the interplay between that and the non-aggression principle. If there were no abortion plank, would you personally run as a pro-life Libertarian?
JJ:.... "I am not going to feature abortion, whether pro-choice, pro-life… I am not going to have that as part of something that I’m campaigning on or that I’m emphasizing. Because there’s something like 2% of the population, where that’s their number one voting issue. Something like 80% of Americans thinks that abortion should be okay in the first three months. It just seems like for the most part that’s been set aside for more urgent things. So I would not run on the issue one way or the other. And in fact… right now I just say I support the party platform.

"But let me point out, the reason I thought that the plank should be eliminated isn’t to have candidates who are pro- life, but [for] people outside the party.... So many times I see this [perceived] as a litmus test. And so many times I run into people who are just so frustrated with Republicans because they’re not following through on smaller government. They’re frustrated with the Democrats, because they’ve changed. They’re no longer for free speech. Now they’ve become, I hate to throw terms around, but let’s just say more authoritarian. So people are looking for another party, and they look towards the Libertarian Party and they say, 'Well, I can’t be in the Libertarian Party because I’m pro-life.'

"And a lot of Libertarians send that message out that if you don’t agree with us, 100/100, you can’t be in our party. The main reason I wanted to get rid of that plank is so that all of these many fine voters out there who are lost - who don’t have a small government party to go to - will look at us as an option. And my experience is that once people join the party, they become more Libertarian on all issues. In fact, I was just talking with somebody a couple of weeks ago, at the Florida convention. And he said, 'You know, when I joined the party, I was 80/100, but being around all the people in here and all the ideas now I’m 100/100.'

"So what I would like to do is drop that one barrier that seems to be a big barrier, so that we can increase membership and then get people to look at the other things."

57 comments:

  1. According to Jorgensen's campaign manager Steve Dasbach when it was explained to her that trying to delete the abortion plank was MORE divisive than keeping it, she changed her mind about deleting it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, I consider myself a libertarian but I'm also pro life. I need to know what I'm voting for. I won't vote for a pro choice candidate. I don't LOVE Trump and so far, I don't really have any problems with anything else I've heard Jo say but Im not going to vote for someone who is going to let babies continue to be unjustly killed... I'd love for her to actually talk about this issue.

      Delete
  2. I am one of those described who wont vote libertarian because im pro life

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Same! It is the only reason I don't vote for most libertarians.

      Delete
    2. Same. It is unfortunate.

      Delete
    3. Me three.
      Abortion is a make or break issue for me and the LP's stance means that I will not join up.

      Delete
    4. Kind of a silly reason. Like really silly. You're ok with voting for president's that murder entire civilian families with both bombs and foreign policy, you can set aside drone striking villiages as maybe not so cool, but acceptable... But God forbid someone disagrees that life begins at conception and maybe we can be open to allowing the killing of something that feels no pain and has zero concept of what's happening.

      Murdering adult and children foreigners? "I'd prefer not, but hur dur national defense, necessary sacrifice"

      Surrender to the majority of the population that's ok with killing a blob human tissue with no cognitive abilities?
      "NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!"

      Y'all are a joke.

      Delete
    5. You know your science R07h842d. Please, take a neuroanatomy class and some pediatric course. These classes will change your opinion. It's unbiased and true. As far as killing other humans. No it's not right. But either oppression or breaking the law. You pay the consequences and role the dice when you do these things. There are bad forces in this world (evil people) sorry to say and at the center is always greed and money. Planned parenthood is no different.

      Delete
  3. and I strongly disagree that there are only 2% of us!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Abortion is the number one issue for 2%, not 2% of Libertarians are pro-life. I'm pro life and I must be part of that 2%, life is a gift from God.

      Delete
  4. "I am one of those described who wont vote libertarian because im pro life." Would taking the abortion plank out of the platform change your opinion on that?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nope. I want to know what I'm voting for, and Pro-Life is the most important thing to me. It's the holocaust of modern times, and we're pretending it's ok to just murder and burn millions of innocent humans.

      Delete
    2. Without the plank, I would evaluate the individual candidates more closely. I would vote for a Pro-Life Libertarian in a heartbeat.

      Delete
    3. I am pro life and don't believe it is only 2%. I know hundreds that feel the same. Trump has proved prolife is important to many. All she says it great and I would vote for her in a heartbeat if she would just admit where she stands. A no comment is an I am too afraid to comment!!!!

      Delete
    4. I hope you live in Georgia; our Senate candidate there has been vetted and approved by the Georgia Life Alliance.
      https://allongeorgia.com/georgia-state-politics/libertarian-constitution-candidate-for-u-s-senate-certified-pro-life-by-georgia-life-alliance/

      Delete
  5. Says that only 2% of the population consider this as their number one voting issue and then almost immediately says she wants to drop it as a plank because she runs into so many people who considers this the litmus test. 🙄

    ReplyDelete
  6. I won't vote for anyone who is not pro-life.

    ReplyDelete
  7. With all the other issues that directly impact us, why is abortion keeping you from voting libertarian? If your need to control others is so strong, then you're not a libertarian!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It seems the person so bent on ending another human life is the one determined to control others.

      Delete
    2. It's not about trying to control people. It's about stopping what's wrong. We dont believe it's okay to go around killing anyone who is an inconvenience to you. The same goes for the unborn.

      Delete
    3. Libertarians would all agree that murder is wrong and should be enforced, as people have the right to not have their life taken. The question is, does this apply to unborn infants? The question still comes down to whether or not you believe an unborn baby to be a person or not

      Delete
    4. Exactly. I tried to avoid the abortion issue for years, until I found the right thing to say; roughly:
      "The abortion issue is as contentious in our party as it is in society as a whole. But we work together, because we all believe in the same the right to life. The right to life means a woman always and everywhere has control of her body, because that is her life; but at the point she actually has a child - whether that's conception, birth, or somewhere in between - that child is a person with its own right to life. We agree on all that; we know we agree on all that; and all we disagree on is where that point is."

      Delete
  8. I truly believe when it comes to government, we need to look at the whole picture instead of focusing on a single issue. There is no way Donald Trump is pro-life, and I’d much rather have an honest candidate.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I apologize for accidentally deleting this great comment. Unfortunately, I can't undelete it, but I was able to find it open in a tab, and copy and paste it back in.

    Random ME Professor at a school not in Switzerland
    June 11, 2020 at 8:59 AM
    The most pro-life thing a president can do is to appoint judges that are not making it their job to revise the constitution. That's what I'm looking for, and the one thing that Trump has delivered on. If a libertarian candidate could convince me where they stand on this, they'd have my vote.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. With us, it's all about rights. An activist court that expanded government overreach, and consequently limited rights, is anathema. And I'd say the mainline libertarian position is constitutional originalism - Ron Paul-style constitutionalism. But, many of the new younger libertarian scholars, like Randy Barnett IIRC, want a court that's more activist in interpreting the Bill of Rights and the "privileges and immunities" clause of the 14th Amendment. And a lot of us support the Warren court's reading in a "right to privacy" as justified by the 9th Amendment. So it's mixed, though I think the balance falls to originalism.

      Delete
  10. I would be all in for just about any libertarian if it wasn't for their abortion plank.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Me too. If someone's main issue is pro-life (like me) our choices are...well, just Trump. Ugh.

      Delete
  11. All of you not voting for her are instead voting Trump. Who is not pro life. He supports bombing people over seas. He's all talk, no action. He's a racist pig. Keep using this one issue as your hill to die on and we will never make any progress outside of splitting the country more and more apart.

    ReplyDelete
  12. If Jo were to get the plank removed and come out publicly saying that she is pro-life, but the definition of homicide is not within the purview of the federal government (every state has their own laws), I believe she could gain a HUGE following from the pro-life movement without alienating the stalwart Libertarians who are pro-choice. PLEASE do this, Jo!

    ReplyDelete
  13. The "if you do not vote for my candidate you are really voting for X" argument is illogical. I will not vote for evil. That dos not mean I am supporting evil. The people who vote for the lesser of two evils are the ones supporting evil.

    ReplyDelete
  14. If libertarians were pro life, I would be an ardent party member. Every other issue to me is secondary. Since I believe a fetus is a human being, killing one is murder, and legalized abortion is worse than the Holocaust. On just about every other issue I absolutely love the libertarian stance. The abortion issue isn't about rights, it's about who a human is and who isn't. If the baby's a human, it has the right to live. If it's not, the mom has the right to get rid of it.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Abortion is one of the main issues that made me leave the LP and switch to the Constitution Party. While this may seem like a trivial issue for the LP, their inability to take a definite stand will keep a number of people away. Of course if they do decide to firmly take one position or the other, the LP risks alienating members within itself. Ultimately one of the major problems within the LP, is that they are composed of groups whose agendas are diametrically opposed to one another.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I'm a former Republican in search of a home. If the Libertarian party had even a wishy-washy stance on abortion, I might be tempted to join, but to be "unconditionally pro-choice, admitting no legal restriction on abortion for any reason, by any method, or at any stage of gestation" is beyond the pale for those of us who believe to our core that a mother killing her child is evil.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yep, same here. As you say, all we’re asking for is a little leeway! Stay silent on the issue as a candidate but let the Party platform be that it’s up to states to decide. Even from a numbers standpoint alone - there are far more pro-life libertarian to-be’s than there are soon to be ex-libertarians if the party adopted a more neutral position.

      Delete
  17. Searched “Jo Jorgensen abortion viewpoints” on Google and this blog post came up. Would vote for her in a heart beat if she was pro-life. I’m fairly left on many issues, but abortion simply overrides everything else. I have my suspicions that 2% is lower than the true number of people that share this viewpoint.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right, so I won’t be voting for Trump either. I’m afraid I’ll just keep writing in names until we get a pro-life candidate that is also a decent person.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I have always voted Republican but just can't vote for Trump this time around. I am searching for a candidate as I'm pro-life and will not vote for Biden. Seems that Dr. Jo is OK with the LP pro choice stance so I guess I'm still looking....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think she is okay with the pro-choice or the pro-life stance, as long as that is what the people have voted for. She says that she is personally pro-life, so I think she probably would vote for her state to be pro-life, but doesn’t want to take that away from states who decide differently.

      Delete
  19. Every presidential candidate claims to be a Christian. But as soon as they say they are prochoice i know they are a liar and I will not vote for them. My biggest issue with Republicans is they will not ban abortion. They just check the prolife box!
    They don't s shrink the government or the debt. It just keeps getting bigger. Give me candidate that can follow through on those topics and I'll vote for them!

    ReplyDelete
  20. I won't vote for anyone that is not firmly pro-choice.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I won't vote LP for the same reason. A baby at 8 weeks is not a blog of human tissue. The brain and spinal cord are forming. Nerves and fingernails are forming. There is pain when aborted at that gestational period. No way will I ever go for a candidate who is pro choice!

    ReplyDelete
  22. Kanye 2020. At least he's pro-life.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I felt good about trump in 2016 and i think he did a good job until 2020. I have started to look back in to the libertarian party, but the only things that hold me back are;
    1 abortion. I am pro life as they.
    come. Just because Jo wants to wave.
    it away as something unimportant.
    does not make it unimportant.
    2 immigration. We are very culturaly.
    unstable with who is currently in.
    the country. We need to be harder at
    this point with immigration
    3 china is subsidizing steel which.
    makes it impossible for american.
    companies to compete. This is a.
    trade war tactic. We need to fight.
    back

    I am pro trump on all these issues. Pro libertarian on all other issues. Dont know what to do with myself lol

    ReplyDelete
  24. Refuse to pick a side and I refuse to choose you as my president... guess I will do what I did in 2016 and vote for TRUMP... TRUMP2020

    ReplyDelete
  25. Would love to vote Libertarian but can't support pro-choice, too bad you won't take a stance

    ReplyDelete
  26. Bring me a pro-life libertarian and I'm all in. But without the right to life, all others are in jeopardy. It's absolutely fundamental.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I wish I could vote for Jo J, but I won't vote for anyone who will not push for a pro life agenda.

    I am very libertarian in my thinking, I just believe that an unborn baby should be defined as a human life and therefore must be garunteed the same right to life as everyone else. I would be interested to know why the libertarian party decided an unborn baby should not be defined as a life.

    Looks like I'll be voting for Trump who has actually done something to support the pro life cause.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I would vote for Jo if she was fervently pro choice. A woman should have the right to have a medical procedure that involves her reproductive organs and her other organs. There are so many different reasons women have an abortion: IVF with multiple embryos, rape, incest, perinatal depression and other mental illnesses, the unwanted ripping of the private part, desire to adopt an existing child instead, the environment, etc. Pro-lifers, please educate yourselves.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Educate yourself on the number of actual medically necessary abortions. The vast majority of abortions are performed as post conception contraceptive.

      Delete
    2. These account for 1% of all abortions.

      Delete
  29. I am just adding to the numbers here of someone who would vote for Jo in a heartbeat if she were Pro-Life. Maybe even if she took it down to the states. We have already, lawfully acknowledged the personhood of the unborn. If we ever acknowledge personhood, we must always. An unborn cannot change personhood due to circumstances. Therefore we cannot protect the personhood in some cases, but then turn around and dismiss it when unwanted. I agree with the LP in every other situation and although I agree government has no place in women's health matters, it does, most definitely, have a place in preserving human life. It's 2020, to pretend the unborn isn't life is burying your head in the sand. We progress as humans throughout our entire lives. To suggest that because a child in utero does not look or function as that as a child outside of utero makes them less of a human, is to deny that a toddler is not a teenager and a teenager is not a senior citizen. To suggest that a child in utero cannot survive without the mother, denies that neither can a child outside of utero, survive without the assistance from another. These are common sense, valid, non-religious arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I love most of what the Libertarian party stands for but I can't vote for a party that is for or non committed about abortion. They don't have a problem being against murder and to me that is what abortion is.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I got my wife to vote for Amash in the primaries over Trump because i explained that he was pro-life and was a Libertarian. There's no way I'm going to be able to convince her to vote for Jo without her taking a stance on being against abortion. So that 2% is looking a lot bigger.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Adding my name to the many pro-life libertarians here. For me deleting abortion from the platform would be a major improvement. I would have voted Amash in a heartbeat and campaigned for him.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I discovered the Libertarian party in 1972 and have voted Libertarian in every presidential election since (even though the Libertarian candidate wasn't on the ballot in D.C. on my first election so I simply wrote John Hospers and Toni Nathan on the ballot with a ball point pen lol)! This year I'll be voting for the Constitution Party because of my pro life position. If Jo Jorgenson would come out in support a non aggression policy for the unborn then I would love to keep my Libertarian voting streak unbroken.

    ReplyDelete